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The mysteries of unsolved ciphers and codes - what secrets can they reveal?

Dec 21, 2017|

Jason Hawes & JV Johnson welcome Dr. Craig Bauer to discuss his book Unsolved! - which examines some of the worlds most puzzling and notorious unsolved ciphers and codes. What secrets lie behind them, and what can we learn. From the Zodiac killer's ciphers, to encrypted treasure maps, there are many yet to be discovered. 12/21/2017 - Beyond Reality Radio with Jason Hawes & JV Johnson

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Automatically Generated Transcript (may not be 100% accurate)

I cannot be owned by scientific method. You're six. Send him tall and. Creature that's been seen my many little life you know. And de Ferran good morning mining boom Herron online inning and news features and yeah me. He lying then yeah real mania apple is lying game. It also shape shifting mentioned you. My experience it's an experience. And I. Sorenstam still serves and East Coast when you're stuck in between welcomed the owner refused myself Jason Hawes in the it was us and Jeanie Johnston who's looking at me and laughed. I can't remember who we love five minutes gonna suit your voice on the clock and aliens is fine intently five cents on okay. Well I take that practicing you know but I'm and then the minute you buy and the microphone yeah I know no one has its assists fiscal deceased kill him yet damn well. In regain your get a lot of sympathy from me and from the folks at jet so we like it recently from now you're absolutely and that's a welcome to the show everybody it's beyond reality radio Jason and javy. And it's and talking about ciphers and codes with the doctor Craig Bauer he's got a new book out it's called. Unsolved the history and mystery of the world's greatest Cyprus from ancient Egypt on mine secret societies. And you know the some cool so we don't often think about this but done things like the zodiac killer. That that cipher still remains unsolved. Are sort of mystery still. What it and it is and then there's been a lot of wall if you if you watch the show the country zodiac killer on the looks like they might have finally cracked the voted. But the other still parts of it that means that they haven't been able to but it's just it's an amazing thing and to think of how many things that the venues where it's been used. For her sending messages. And battle fronts back and forth and it's just goes on and on all the way back to end the beginning of pretty much mankind and communications. Should just try to keep secrets from. Yet and they're still so many that remain unsolved ancient site for casino medieval ciphers. Even even many that are even more current than that. They are just not solved people there's treasure maps there are you know blue letters from people literal long deceased that we just can't read and and doctor Craig Bauer is going to talk about his book he's gonna talk about what some of these mysteries are a lot of really really weird and interesting stories ago along with les. Yeah and I'm doctor Craig Bowery spent on histories aren't the zodiac killer secret history the story of group. Ecology and just so much more mean he's he's been on a much different TV shows talking list. And with regret really look forward to having a month yet it's gonna be great tomorrow night we've got Jonathan gray joining us he's an archaeologist a historian and author and lecturer are we talking about the past present in the future in the form of ancient technology. Forbidden discoveries. And prophesy. And then every Friday of course is the best of the on the radio. And then just to remind everybody easily find decent Christmas and this came so fast yeah I'm not ready I'm bummed I'll be honest with you Richard you know like never rate for Christmas that's true we meet meet personally or just everybody. Now you yet universally thought I just so you know I've already gone out and bought all my apology card so that I can give them out because they didn't buy gifts for people that's that's a sorry that's important when Ortega mine and he uses in the mail already that's so if you're having an issue had over. To FaceBook dot com slash beyond her reality radio like the FaceBook page and had to be unreal you radio dot com where you can download three iPhone and android app. You can neutralize a slight catch nationalist join me online chat more click on the station tab which allows you to listen Michelle lives and one doesn't try that again. Accordent station tab which allows which will tell you all the greats east we are across country or click on the listen life tab. It's a connector on online chat room which Avian myself and agree community people you know and iTunes in the show right from there. You realize the people and Chad our blaming you for the stream being down at the moment they are you view your virus has infected the district. So virus I don't think that's how it works folks but. You know if you can't hear us on the stream obviously just check out one of the great radio radio stations carry the program all over the country and find the ministries and said his go to the website the list is there. Don't forget the told free listener line 8446877669. Will open up the alliance for phone calls a little bit later in the program. Seeing how Christmas can be really frustrating times for a lot of people I think I think it's directly correlated to how commercialized Christmas has gotten you know as as the commercial commercial component goes up frustration goes up really think that's what's gonna be I know exactly are we talking. And let alone I mean it's you barely get through Thanksgiving in the and you just hit instantly. With all the Christmas stuff and it's nonstop lies it's always facing or you can -- starts with start to before Halloween now we need to eat go to stores before Halloween you sing Christmas stuff coming out to new release Russian stuff while wondering company has come up with perfect idea for you intellectual work it out assist button so you are a London reach room. Is offering people who were not having an holly jolly Christmas the chance to bash away. All the symbols of the she's and the patriots agreed idea everybody should have weights one day that they can do business. Pretty equivalent of about a 44 dollars. Visitors are are able to get them red jumpsuit put on hard hat grabbed peaceful back. And just totally reefs have. Smashing treason ornaments and everything else for three minutes in Rudolph's reach. A adultery after a so. And this one guy Heaton I just imagine everyone from last year who didn't get me anything and then showed them how while pierce Egan who hates Christmas talked CBS news the room features a range of Christmas related paraphernalia including trees. In which Christmas bulbs dancing Santas. And a lot more all the and it's the best fortune he can do to the Crist soundtrack a chill up. So it's gonna tell pierce that it's better to give than to receive while he's everybody's Jazeera with a baseball. And so and here's the best part is why you Mexico. There's also bar. Well wall that makes it all worthwhile so underage rooms and popping up on the world allowing people spend a few minutes in the not so gentle release of smashing everything hates us. Office equipment kitchens and everything so I. I would love to test itself. Yeah I know I think it's agree way to relieve some stress I think these other ways too with that that would be a lot of time and going up Boise well it started I don't think they should put us in the same group and the hope with a baseball bats don't we start swinging god knows where we're gonna what. I'm a willful. Yet. And we we have a great show lined up for you tonight again doctor Craig bowers coming into the program in just a few moments after a break we're going to be talking about ciphers and codes. A secret societies. Ancient mysteries whole bunch of great stuff coming up on the program yet so we're gonna take a quick break in the league Mordechai licences. JPM got really good. They beyond reality radio friends and you know most of the guests featured on beyond reality Radiohead books and other interesting offerings for our listeners and now he's made it even easier for you to get a hold of them just visit the beyond reality read your web. Get beyond real radio dot com and click on the gas tab in then you better from there you'll see recent beyond reality radio guests with a short find help and some of the things they're offering are beyond reality radio listeners hooked on whatever you're interested in anything order street from there it couldn't. Be easier that's beyond reality radio dot com click on the guest tab in the menu and then simply sit back enjoy beyond reality. Don't forget that's beyond reality radio dot com just click on the guest menu headings. And then you'll find what you want and thanks for listening to beyond reality radio. Beyond reality radio with Jason javy Clinton. Have you along jot down the phone number literal open up the foam onto state 44687. 766 January talk about ciphers agents oversees secret societies all that stuff. Armored -- listen I don't I'm talking so you know it's this has always been when it was interesting subjects and I just wish -- voice to talk yet you know I don't know if this makes me an odd ball and you'll probably say it does regardless. But I remember back in the elementary school from a bunch my buddies and that created a couple of ciphers that we can use to rate notes and communicate with each other god knows what we're talking about it at the time we thought. We're pretty clever. And in you know and we used to you know pass notes and school and the teacher Bradley couldn't read him and I just got to some more trouble. The content but nobody seemed to even throw all the the holiday movies and what was that the Christmas story or whatever where the kid in the beginning east east and you know waiting for the codes didn't turn the thing back and forth and and figure out exactly what's being said. And so so you see you see it all over the place slalom kids watches that some of the Bolton now as always it's a swat. Yeah it's pretty cool stuff and our guest tonight is an expert in all of this doctor Craig Bauer to his new book is called unsolved. The history and mystery of the world's greatest ciphers from ancient Egypt arm once secret societies can find that book and his other book secret history the story script apology. On Amazon must welcome on Craig to the program great to have gone beyond reality radio tonight. Yes just great to be here thank you for having me. So let's get started by learning a little bit about you. Tell us much self. Are sure armour professor of mathematics at York college of Pennsylvania. And I mean like you I played with these ciphers are the kid. And I just had no idea how deep this subject grand. So why I found out about that when I was in college job finishing off my computer science minor. I needed do an independent study and professor suggested encryption. And I as the bowl what's that yeah I and it's was back before you were purchasing things online that credit cards and you know codes and ciphers or something the average person needed in anyway. So he he introduced me is there's the much deeper subject where. All the mapped and computer science that I love came that there are so I've been going full steam. So let's kind of start with some definitions here what's the difference between eight code and cipher. Well a code usually doesn't have any. I was sort of mathematical rule to end like you have code named the falcon and the snowman. Or the mission to the moon the eagle has landed. Assumed it is code named code words. And you know you can make up thousands of these and have a giant dictionary they use of the code in war time. So that those. You know try to unravel those like figuring out a loss language your foreign language. Whereas. A site for usually doesn't. Replace words but it replaces the individual characters were Netflix Euro and one that it's but on a computer. So so they act in different ways and usually a cipher has. Simpler mathematical rule it's not just down. Eat you know the that this shuttle becomes the quarter. Or that some spy gets code named falcon are usually mathematical rule. And we do you wouldn't we talk about something like. The ethical was indeed a month for World War II where we got we are the Brit I'm not exactly sure thank my World War II history little spotty but I think I think we were in northern British cracked the German. Coat. It was static code as you just find it or was that a site for that we were able to crack and therefore. Intercept messages. You know it actually decipher because it was a machine that that had a hard and fast rule for how the substitutions were done a predictable rule if you knew. The innards of the machine. But a lot of people including two professionals Walter and speak loosely. So you'll often refer B you'll hear refer to the enigma code but but technically valid decipher. And on the polish actually don't often get credit but the polish were the first do you care about one apart. And are they passed on the knowledge they had two jobs to British jury let's keep things going even when changes were made. So we wanted to onetime thing one time pass to break that's cipher. The Germans kept making changes to its the British wrapped try to keep up and and we also help them with that. So so. He got two thirds of it when you name the Americans and the British as having broken Apatow the polls were the first. And when you were kinda guided in college two will be down this path how does somebody start. Researching this we were gym where do you start what are the obvious ones seem a bit obvious. Code ciphers or users of codes and ciphers that that you would start looking at. Yeah well considered an independent study who is on media wasn't something where the professor you know had a ball. You got there at the campus spoke sort of purchasing indyk going. So I just went so librarians are grabbing books I was very lucky to find one by David pond. He's the top historian at apology. And wade back in the sixties he wrote a history of apology it was over a thousand pages long. I mean it starts in ancient cultures and you know went up all the way to the time netbooks all pray and and despite been more done since then and and then earned enough that thousand pages that he covered is just an immense history. So. Now the fabulous introduction for me. It seemed that every culture. After they develop writing very quickly goes on to develop site first. You know writing some places that sort of secret script when most people are ill literate. But as soon as you know a decent summer people learn to read and write new order keeps secrets from their many needs secret writing. But but the code breakers with a with a great place to begin and nobody's come close to these two doing as fabulous for the job with Fiat early history of the subject. Well talking about your books specifically. You know. When I looked at it at first I thought while this is gonna be very difficult to understand but it's not and you prevent present the information. Not just in the in the mathematical or scientific. Form but she talked about the stories that go along. With many of these unsolved ciphers and codes and it it puts a personality to them makes it very very interesting. Well thank you very much I did seem netbook and a general audience I was I was writing on salt for everyone not. Not worry you know put technical mapped journal and I mean you can make it technically definitely get technical but it doesn't have to earlier just so many fascinating stories. They can be told you know without calculus with with top and we just barely a touch of may be like ninth grade math and that's a fight says Q the delve into that. Yet and and element as we get down in the discussion we'll talk about some of the specific stories because there's some really interesting ones but. What would you say. Are the components of creating and using an effective cipher. That is extremely difficult. I mean usually people start to study this subject. It'll go on to create some Cyprus they think it unbreakable. And really there's only one I mean there's only one fight for this theoretically unbreakable. Anything else it's somebody puts in enough time in. It's a could be broken. Now you know we have Cyprus today were enough time might mean a million years with the world's fastest computers but will we can't prove that there's not a quicker way. So there amid we have a long history of the you know people think and he came up with a good cipher and then some refinement especially clever attack in the fold quickly. Even if you have something strong he might implement it in a bad way I mention this is a really hard to do on line. And you said there's only one that's unbreakable and what does that. Yes so that this was not proven way back in the 1940s by collection in any proof that the one time pad as it's known. Is the only theoretically unbreakable cipher. And that's where you just have. A bunch of random shift. They use on the letters of the message. So if you're a message they begin the attack it dawn. You should it be by some amount maybe it's three c.s shipped before by three letters CD. And the next letter and begin. Leadership each character forward some random amount. And if you're she ended the output bag you know he start back at the beginning with your shift but. Com dissident cipher that's been around for over a hundred years. But is is really. It's not that practical if if I wanted to send news say a twenty word message I just need twenty random amount to ship the letters by it's not a big deal. But I wanna send you. Yeah you know video files. I mean apple lot of data how my going to do that. It's not really it's not really a practical method. Okay RE Lowell who will get into a lot more of that when we come we. We have to take our break below us in the Jason NG via video on oil. Fred Bauer about his book unsolved the history and mystery the world's greatest Cyprus from ancient Egypt to online secret societies by the way. Doctor Bauer has also starred in the TV miniseries miniseries on the History Channel. Yet it's a great show and I mean you guys do you guys do incredible work on that Craig. And it's just it's wild to see how far you guys have come throughout this series on on breaking the code. Yeah I was exciting. Carcass seven the production company put together a really great team and does does know the good experience for me. Now you say you said you were at York and. Sorry it's York college of Pennsylvania. Okay yeah. Well I've I've spoken at the you're in the New York senator and JD's I would be up there as well once it's beautiful area. Thank you know we're we're about 45 minutes north of Baltimore. A yeah let's talk about. You you mentioned something it before I went to break you talked about trying to break any cipher said could take a million years with the world's fastest computer. And the word computer stuck out to me. How does all this changed with the advent of the digital age it must be significantly different. I'll hand in hand. Computing technology was motivated. By the need to break site person. So former director of the national security agencies that are a machine that today might be. You know those of twenty years ago it wasn't for all the money they poured in to helping these computer manufacturers. You know push the limits of what could be done. So I mean this is why we have of the bill also machines we do. And I have course they can they completely revolutionize the field. And they're gonna do it again. Quantum computers sigh I believe it'll be a reality before a long and it's just gonna redefined the field again and have that big I mean who crew could have predicted. In Europe client computer's gonna revolutionize things began as just very exciting time to be an involved in this field. Does that computing technology and digital delivery of information. Make it virtually. Unable two cracks some of these ciphers and coded messages and it seems to me and I know again this is way beyond my pay grade is seems to me that. When you put it into digital form it just compounds the problem by a million times. Well we have very strong algorithms to its you're actually incite further communication. But a lot of times people bypassed that are we have all kinds of what are known as side channel attacks. And arm. In these big they don't address the mathematics but I on the third one really simple example. You can be typing up a message on your computer and you're gonna act you know click some buy into and fight for it but before you do so. There's somebody on the other side of the wall may be your hotel rooms somebody in the room next door. Are using technology to reproduce your computer screen just from the electro magnetic and the nation's that it gives ball. So the summary with the right equipment. Jimmie sitting again on the other side of wall no visual line of sight. And read everything your typing. Before you incite further. So it makes no difference if you have the world's strongest encryption your methods already got your messages already given up. So. Most I believe the most messages that are broken today or use some kind of side channel attack you know perhaps somebody's place a Trojan on your computer and you know they don't need to break the encryption and you can try that but that's the hard way to do things today so. So it essentially you're right that they're doing this digitally. You know may make it easier to break in some ways. Just like when. Our messages were first broadcast by radio. If you if you start transmitting my radio army is very convenient. But so easy to intercept. So in a sense cigar computer has made it easier for the at a meeting intercepted communication and they built in bypass you know try to break decipher. Now how many different kinds of codes and ciphers are there and I know that there there is broken down into different things like Morse code hidden in the Caesars shift code know all things like that. There are certain amount of these these actual codes. Or elderly it out. Picked at it's both good and bad bet there's more than any one person could ever rapist had around. I mean I love the idea that I'm never gonna run out of material in this subject dialogue. But it's also intimidating that there'll be so much I can never now. One of the things that kind of touches on the topic tonight and it's a very simplistic form but they have those polls and and in the newspapers have oracle crypto grams or something where. You're basically it's a simple replacement you know the X stands for a no threw the ball through the message just replace X ray went to figure that out. And the way you figure that out as a layman you look at the repetition of certain characters and know that you know certain. Letters in the English language you'll repeat in certain ways and Ted that's how you use solve that brittle or that that that cipher. Talk about the relationship of the frequency. Of the use of letters in English language and how that helps people a break some of these ciphers. Yet that's a great example of how certainly apparent strength of a cipher. Is not the reality. I mean if you just replaced one letter with another there's a huge number of possibilities. So I think has put this problem in my experience they say you'll supposed goddess trying to break. A simple cipher like this and cuddly Dottie just take sort of a macho head on attack of trying all the possibilities. And you know he could try a million possibilities the second. How Long Will it take to break this cipher. And even trying a million possibilities. First second. From. The beginning of the universe with state of Big Bang so now he's hardly scratched the surface. So. I joke around this is an explanation for why there is to you why if there is a god why there's so much evil in the world police busy trying to crack this site for the stupid way. But. But it ya anybody with just a little bit of practice period could break one of these site presented to me at 2030 minutes. And it's because these patterns like you mentioned the letter. So that are trying all the possibilities. Why not just look for which letter appears the most often and presumed that it C. The purity of more all hours than anything else Q if you tentatively replaced all are with the and the second most frequent letter about 9% of all English is key to could try that. And if you have a key in any year you look for where they appear close to another close to each other like. He and then some unknown letter in any. Is likely to be the word saw. And we just make use of these statistics as little patterns. That we have an English language. And without any machinery you're an enemy or need to run a computer programmer anything like that you don't need a stricter dictionary. Are just being aware some of these patterns you can. Eliminate. Huge numbers of possibilities and and completely recovered a message and just if they twenty minutes a much quicker Peters keep practicing arm. When. We've discovered things through archaeological efforts or other. Ways that we examining ancient cultures how common was it other than something like hieroglyphics which I don't know if I don't think you'd consider how to rogue lift exit colder a cipher sort of person it was just. A written language. But how common or is it trust to find something that today it would have been encoded or. Insight offered and for a staff to try to figure out what was. From an ancient culture. There's actually quite a lot of this material. But typically the experts dismissed it as gibberish. I think there's some hesitancy to. Era except something is possibly legitimate having meaning. If you don't know what that meaning is you know I think a lot of people don't like to say they don't know. So for example we have thousands of bases from ancient Greece. They have inscriptions that again these experts can't make anything up and it's our kind of easy on the ego for these people are just dismiss it as chair virtually the person who pain of this space must have been ill literate. Yet we have some bases where you have meaningful words. And then somewhere else on the base the so called gibberish. So in those instances the that person who painted it was certainly literate. Am I mean the inscriptions are the same style. Also I think some of those might be ciphers. Com we also have their morning Egyptian sir coffin got. I mean at the very serious things some gloved one has died in and you're scurbel gibberish meaningless tyra glitz on the Cirque offer guests. But you know excel on the experts dismissed would such inscriptions resist you know she empire clips are nonsense subscriptions. Arm but I think some of these may be ciphers as well. So if you count these kind of you know quickly dismissed examples. Ciphers actually on default site first. Are very common in the ancient world. Are we even have the vikings giant rune stones I mean held a lot of work to it to carve this giant rune stone. And some of them appear to be meaningless. And all these cultures are known to have to have. Media says ciphers so I think their Polly. Cyprus that we just haven't figured out yet. I want to get into some of the stories that you present in the book that have a relationship to of the loot the ciphers are the codes and time I don't know what you've got some favorites but even starting at the beginning of the book when you talk about can Rudolf the second of yeah he's now holy Roman empire. Mean it's fascinating stuff is that when your favorites and even if not tell us about it. Hot topic had to pull the funny thing is. This book occurred over 600 pages. And it's only my favorite. I I thought I was gonna write a 300 page book but. There's so much Matt fascinating material that the more I researched the more sound and there's a lot of stuff that got left on this sort of the cutting room floor that may or may guilty preakness sequel one day by Yasser we we got about 600 pages of my favorites but. Took care Rudolf the second and anyone that depict king here it's holy Roman emperor. This is back in the days when it meant something okay and I mean imagine imagine the power like what you could do. Eerie how he can raise the standard of living for your people and to all the good you can accomplish. Well. Rudolph didn't care for any of that. He was off on a quest to live forever. You're searching for the philosophers stone Q do you change lead in the golden entry is mute the alchemist himself so that he could be immortal. And just delving in all these Nicole secrets and spare no expense. If he could apply a book that he thought contains some occult knowledge. You would try to borrow it and just keep it or reverse Steele books I mean. Tremendous resource is being holy Roman emperor and this is how he used them he brought the best alchemist to his court. He hired the best astrologers. Arms so actually some decent in defiance came that astronomy but. One bookie purchased it page 600 gold dockets for. I don't know exactly know what it doc it would translate to today but they're gold dockets and we have 600 of that so he paid a pretty mighty price. For a book entirely written and fight for. He taught that it might have been written by Roger bacon and then Mike container coal secrets so again there's no cost was too much. And the amazing thing is despite being able hire the best that money could buy in any field. He could never get this 200 some page cipher cracked. I just tantalized them and you know ever since he obtained it and have. It was rediscovered outlaw other other people worked on it after rock king Rudolph the second died. Arm and then. Eventually was rediscovered intimate best code breakers that twentieth century took a swing at it. Everybody's failed to this is just an incredibly mysterious document. Or until somebody actually penetrates the cipher. Its contents could be literally anything. What are your thoughts I mean you must've looked at looked at it is this something that you think can as a message or is it is a gibberish as we've the word reviews with some of the things here. I go back and forth then it seems like every paper that appears on this topic and there's been a melt before them. Kind of shift my opinion you know. Some days I feel like it's a hoax. I mean somebody did get 600 gold dockets for the yes I mean that's worth. You know spending a few months just making up some crazy. Are manuscript. But then later you're there was carbon dated it goes back to the 14100. We'll keep Rudolph the second was late fifteen hundreds early sixteen hundreds filled with folks still want to whip that mark in mind. That leaves me think maybe there really is a message error. Our the statistical analysis Centre has been unusual. It doesn't it doesn't really look like. Any kind of natural language. In terms of repetition has has actually four Q much repetition. Arm so it's really crazy manuscript it could be a hoax and I'm not eliminate that possibility. Com. William freed men are one of America's top code breakers. In the twentieth century. Bought it was an artificial language to language it's somebody made off. So. You know closer to a codes fate and a fight for her. Like Esperanto is that is better known artificial language. Cop. So. A lot of days I lean toward that possibility. I if there was a hoax it was and it was very sophisticated. Aren't so we're gonna take a quick break a lot more to come he'll the phone numbers 84468776. X nine and told freed 8446877669. Euros and Jason in TV on. Speaking. It's iconic. Christmas images and songs. Source Vince grow to trio there. It's beyond reality radio Jason JV we've got doctor Craig Bauer witness his book is unsolved the mr. history and mystery of the world's greatest ciphers from ancient Egypt on the line secret societies and Craig we've got about a mini here what Chad for it to jump into our top of the hour break but I wanted to ask another question about king Rudolph second. Remember reading in the book dead the Catholic Church actually thought he needed an exorcism because of all this stuff. Yeah incredible. And day did the ever perform meant that you are aware of the day actually go through that stuff. No no I'm not aware that I ever actually having been done by it but they were concerned about this guy deeply. It was huge part of the Hapsburg dynasty there was there was a something else to you know. RG I focus on his delving into the occult and nine and ended his position in this fight purse so. I I don't know that. Remember learning in when I when I took my western civilization classes in college that the Hapsburg dynasty there were so in bread they all ended up crazy and they had them it's very pronounced. Deformed chain as partners or their looks like figure out when you said he was crazier figured he must be have spurred immature but it sounds sounds accurate anyway. Yeah yeah yeah sure does are when we come back from the break. Yeah an engine if you haven't seen the show us it's a great show he can look it up on our on demand or whatever but it's it's just Grisham and she checked it out. Ours or we're gonna end up taking a break if you haven't yet who had over to FaceBook dot com slash beyond reality radio like to FaceBook page forest. Then had to be on reality radio dot com we can click on the station tab final stations where across the country. Can dulled the free iPhone and android app right there which let's listen live sketch specialist on the online chat more or listener from the website is by clicking the listen lies tab. We'll connect you normally chat rumored TV and I usually with the great community of people in the US right there from the website. If you download the show which we know it's being downloaded logged tens of thousands times daily greatly appreciate that just it was a favorite rate at forest because it helps push a Ford makes it easier for people find. Are a lot more comments to this you listen Jason GBM beyond relative. Stokes. So just wasn't always talks and GT Johnson. But it it. What do you like so you know exactly what I don't you think kids like you should be in. My game in one of those sick wards like you don't think it's in a bed with the owners and it's it's funny I think there's a sounding better last kind of sounding forced and yet you know I think you're losing my voice as soon as I am not talking them unit you know it's interesting but I think he'd get me meats and tea and drinking tea over there president Clinton's got a TV and whiskey that at this there was this field at Kentucky way of result a little lemon there are just so it doesn't looks like we're at the whiskey so important yes we welcome to the show everybody it's beyond reality radio tonight we're talking with doctor Craig Bauer about his book unsolved the history and mystery of the world's greatest ciphers. For an ancient Egypt online secret societies. Tomorrow night we're talking to Jonathan gray he's an archaeologist historian and author and lecturer. Will be talking about the past the present and the future in the forms of ancient technologies. Forbidden discoveries. And prophecy. And every Friday as the best of the on reality radio but a next week of course you know we're taking the week off its Christmas vacate. So old playing a repeat shows hopefully release has safe incredible holiday spent a lot of time with the family and I will be back my right after the new year yes it. We will we will we are gonna take the week we'll have the best of all week to be great shows real promise you that and then we'll be back live isn't your interest and will be starting 2018 year. And we're looking forward to ending the whole bunch new radio stations in the new year a lot of great stuff coming up that we're looking forward to. Absolutely excel and I'm in its shows assessed because a year when we greatly appreciate patent. You know weren't weren't donor are trying to artist you run you're trying artist estimate Julie China already has been targeting you and. Some are listening our guests back into the program doctor Craig Bauer. Greg. Let's talk alluded about the zodiac story. You've got a lot of intimate knowledge. You wrote about it in the book you also were involved. In the ITV minis mini series on the History Channel called the hunt for the zodiac killer set the stage for us because in a lot of us have heard. Then did the name or the term the zodiac killer and had already knows the story. Sure. Well. For me this story begins with Betty Lou Jensen. So it's just she's just sixteen year old girl and she's out on her very first state. Citizens back in December of 1968. She's going out with. Honors student who is also a varsity wrestler. And they end up parked at a little lovers' lanes spot. And then. Somebody approaches the vehicle. And cute both of arm I mean Betty gets out and she tries to run and she shot repeatedly in the back. Are just sitting incredibly cowardly attack. Ending the young life. And I mean it got worse he later approached another couple. The following Tom fourth of July weekend. Again bear park do you know what could be considered a lover's lane. Most by a golf course. And again just just shoot some. Our he seems to have had more anger towards the women forced summaries and and and usually put more bullets in them and in this instance the mail survive. The so unfortunately the description wasn't great but you know he was able to give vague description of his attacker. Our and then he struck again. During the daytime. Another young Koppel is out at lake area so I just enjoying a picnic. And again all these attacks are so cowardly. He has yet begun any and holding these this couple at gunpoint. Yes the woman tied a man at all. And then once he's tied up he ties up the warm and and then you know there there helpless he stabbed them repeatedly again more anger directed toward the female. Once again the female bodies and opt for the second time the mail survives solo horribly injured. And it finally as if you to prove that he can kill a man. He shoots a cab driver in the head. So com. Eric at all cowardly attacks and there may be others these are ones that are. Com you hate dictator very conservative approach that everybody assigned to zodiac. Armed or other Al wire cases that may or may not have enhancement. Before I got drawn incidents. We have not only. Unsolved crimes nobody's been able to prove prove it is zodiac is nobody was ever arrested for those crimes. We also have a default site firms. You know most most criminals who do everything they can to avoid the police. But this guy would make phone call soon after or so of his murders he called in to report them. He also sent many letters. Mostly cues here Francisco area newspapers. Some of these included ciphers. One was broken fairly quickly and others remain on fault. So we have all these candlelight conclusion if we could break east Cyprus could we possibly identify who he is it is named her appealed and won at least Cyprus. So I just amazing that that this guy was not capture. I mean every time he communicated. He wrist revealing some subtle clues that would help authorities identify him but. But somehow it hasn't quite happened has been nearly fifty years. And it was it fifty years ago the last time we heard from him lease that were aware of. No he's communications continued into the 1970s. And there even communications beyond that that are in doubt. I mean unfortunately this guy inspired copycats. So for example in the 1990s. There's somebody claiming to be zodiac killing people in New York City. That fellow was eventually apprehended and it's far too young to have been the killer from the 1960s. But it it can sometimes be tricky to sort out which communications Virginia line in which are imitations. What was unique about his messages particularly the ones that were in sight for foreign. Well I had a lot of strange symbols I and there are many letters and sometimes a letter be written backwards. But they're also very symbols may expand. So this is not like something column you know professional would create its. On the way back in the eighteen hundreds. Eligible for the board to rule that he thought should hold for any cipher system and one was they should be easily transmissible. And that they have meant by telegraph. Arm but you know this guy I was creating messages it couldn't be said via Morse food or or any other easy method as resist. So Alex and a lot of a lot of Cyprus will be strictly composed of alphanumeric. Characters but. But having these weird symbols and wove it and I guess that's that's a possibility of some information being conveyed their why these particular symbols. Are ulyetza Greek letters to expand. When somebody had a background in mathematics or engineering or physics said that that he killed comparable with. You know of the Greek alphabet as well. But that's one of the things that made it may be unique is its effusive strange symbols. What little I know about it and I haven't seen a whole lot about this I'm in years. And I knew I wanna I'm looking for to actually checking out. The hunt for zodiac but. He was old of bit of if you like to bravado he moved to I think he declared himself smarter than the police he declared himself a genius. All those things based on what you know in his work in creating this cipher do you think he was those things are just lucky. A mix of boat I don't think he was the genius but I think he was Smart I think you is quite a bit smarter than the average person. And he did have a lot of luck. When he killed a cab driver. I believe the police spotted him. They were on the scene just minutes after the murder. And a police officer actually called B someone walking away from the scene. Asking if he had seen anything. And this fellow missed directed damn that he all I saw somebody waving a gun running that way. And please your mall in that direction you it would it would later believe that this was actually the killer. Tom there's a bungled description. A couple of teenagers had. Witnessed the killer leaving the cab. Actually wiping down part of the cab. And they described as wearing dark clothing. And apparently the police dispatcher misunderstood. And the bulletin went out to to look for a 480 negro male. Sorted dark clothing or more in the power as a black man and so when the police stopped the actual killer arena to see a white guy Lloyd as a matched a description maybe he saw something. If they would have known that the murder was a white man. They might have detained in the record in the end of the story or perhaps he would've fired upon and then we'd have another another death. Column. But it I mean I was in it that would indeed him it incredible law that that he was able to talk to the police and get away. We think he still lives. I would lean towards no. Descriptions from the time period from the late sixties put him as being no little bit of an older man. And he referred to some of it the people here he killed his kids. Which you know lead to think that he was older than them. Our home. So our guys are not like to believe he's dead end and I also think you know the TV show I mean every episode had over one point three million viewers. Our prior to this certain high budget movie or Jake Gyllenhaal. I gotta think if you still alive if you would have written some ladders. Yeah so you would have liked the attention. Oh of course he he thrived on that mean. And that might have been second only to the killing thing in terms of the pleasure he got from out of his life. But it changes the topic a little bit here. One of the shows that I actually do enjoy watching is the curse of oak island and during the hunt for the treasure is there. They came across while the reports are it doesn't exist any more from what I'm aware of they can across a tablet which had some inscriptions on it which has has has been reproduced. Have you seen that and what do you make of it if you have. Yeah I saw reproduction of that tablet I mean this is fishy in the original lost. But it was a simple cipher like the kind you were describing earlier were every letter is consistently replacing some other latter. And I believe that these sites remained near indicated that church treasurer below. So I'll. I mean if that was real etc. pretty straightforward saying it's it's unlikely to have other interpretations. And it's from what I understand it has a lot of similarities to some of those nordic. It's stones that have been inscribed the terror throughout Sweden and another Nordic Countries you see those similarities as well. Are you gonna bring it up real quick so I can see it. Sorted which is a there are specimens operator try to make yeah. Immediate doesn't it doesn't look like we're nick writing. You have so. The vikings are known to have. You know. Sophistication and ciphers there was there was on par with the ancient Greeks in the ancient Romans. Home but now I mean what what I'm seeing here I guarantee trying goals which are not verdicts symbols and I see some bill looks like the Greek letter. There the rooms are hurt almost entirely. Gergen Ari you know there's an exception but it's it's lined and angles in a straight line distorting up so so with the latter why doesn't. But I look Roenick to me. Let's go back to is some of the other stories and personalities in your book that relate to ciphers and codes. We talked about king Rudolf the second who was actually the emperor of the holy Roman empire or what else stands that we tuchman zodiac is well what else stands out there's some great stories and there. Oh yes so. Every sort of person you can imagine from. Palm. Our Ricky McCormick he he was considered to be ill literate is mom said he couldn't read or righty. Yet he was found dead in the corn field out of outside Saint Louis with what appeared to be cipher messages on this person. And then you have you know I answered at the other end of the spectrum Edward L dark. Famous composer. He's a one to root out pomp and circumstance which which we hear graduation. Created a site for that no one's been able assault. So it's not like this is the exclusive domain. Genius as whether they be criminal or musical. Arm. So it's Saddam. Other example the criminal cases jurors Henry deposed Sunnis. Arm. He was hanged for killing his third white. This was back in late eighteen hundreds and Essex county New York. So the jury deliberated for all of nine minutes before just deciding to end this man's life. Suffice to say the the evidence was overwhelming. But this was his third wife he's he's hanged for killing her. And it comes out that yet Q otherwise he died mysteriously. Our one drowned. And another starved to death after which he hired a cook you prepare all of his meal. Now I understand that there are eating disorders that a wealthy person could start to death but. It's it's highly suspicious. So this sort of fellow who. You know I think it's probably serial killer huge tank for one murder but he may have killed three wives. On the they're actually some indications that he had other deaths on its hands. But he left behind a bunch of on salt ciphers. And armed d.s have kind of a masonic looked at them like like you might have possibly been a free Mason or been thrown out of the free masons. Armed but. Is that something that you just. Made by hand again this is the late eighteen hundreds he didn't have a computer to work with. Somehow we made up Cyprus just by hand that and nobody's been able to break. It's fascinating and but Lou we have to jump in to break here we get back we'll talk about some more of these stories in the later in the book the book is called unsolved the history and mystery of the world's greatest ciphers from ancient Egypt. Two secrets are among society's. On reality radio JC GB. Javy thinks of you for joining us are decimated doctor Fred Goldman came back. Just a few moments continued talking about his book unsolved history and mystery of the world's greatest ciphers. From ancient Egypt. Online secret societies also your phone calls at 844687. 7669. It's beyond reality radio don't go away we have. Shown talking to doctor Craig power to write about her. Unsolved the history and mystery of the world's greatest ciphers from ancient Egypt to our minds secret societies it's a fascinating book and as you said Craig you wrote this book from a perspective that anyone can read it in actually enjoyed because I was a little concerned when I got the book that. While my going to be able understand the stuff which really did a great job of personal lines in the stories. And they're presenting them in a way that it that it is understandable by somebody who isn't a mathematician. Well another part of my aim is to do something you know similar to the TV programs unsolved mysteries or America's Most Wanted. Where are reader has the chance to contribute something. I mean there are many cases in this book criminal and noncriminal. Are where there's a chance that that are reader can contribute some information about that may end up leading to a solution to one of these site first. So I put my email address in the front of a balking on the I'm looking forward to hearing for from people has more more copies get out there. If you do rank. Create a priority list what would be at the top of the list. Of of the stories in the unsolved. Ciphers which included the book which one would you like to see self first. Our I think probably the Henry devote at least cipher which are talking about before the break where this follows hanged for killing his wife but. Probably killed the first two. And I actually put forth precluded. Hadn't seen publicized anywhere else says that I'm sure we'll help unravel best. One of his site first. It's clearly a home. Because that pairs of long lines and with the same symbols says that for finding. And this has been reproduced admits it's available on line. Arm but I learned that the back of this paper cut the translation. Of the home in Greek. So one side has decipher and the other side has the Greek plane taxed what it means. Now this both spoke six languages so I mean we can't presume that the site furries is top. Your transformed from the Greek it could have been another language but. I'm sure that some reader going back and forth would be able to figure out what the substitutions were applied those to the other site first and then know everything he wrote. Right ruin a Lester to the phone lines here we've had a bunch of people waiting on hold ever gonna get to everybody but this is Vince from Missouri agent Jim a question for our guest tonight. I dare say wherever question. You have to pay record I'll care about it of course statement as I agree about the zodiac killer. If you look around at all our. In regard and around and you arrive not you know have much problem where you're not remotely done. Yet Doleac and Johnny's done. Robot arm and he got away with a but my question is about the zodiac the waters biggest bank about the media's role in making the art famous. And should the media pull back. Point you know or not makes some aren't being there their brand your third cycle at the nature. You know and pull back and say you know one hour broadcast urged out. It just beating your demons. Damn that's a great question since twentieth what do you think Greg. Well I'd like to see them handle it kind of in the way I do. Don't say oh the zodiac is striking fear into the hearts of people in here consists go in many terrorizing California. Now instead makes statements like. If the tower he's sneaking up on people with a gun near the only stab these people after they were tied up. Just arm make sure that all the publicity he gets too negative. So he's courting this publicity put it salt mocking him criticizing him. Opera trading amid a very negative light. And the army that called in to back off a little bit in the letter writing or you know they don't feed him right. I mean we'll. I think much of the coverage. 45 some of these criminals are. We're or toward speed into the atmosphere that they're generating I think given that we hold them up to ridicule. We would dis incentivize them. Has in this is this is kind of may be related question maybe it's completely off base but Tim has the advantage in introduction of social media kind of taken the place. Of of regular media in the sense that if there and we know that would with killers like the Columbine killers over the sandy hook killer you know those guys are rented on FaceBook. Prior to committing their acts you know is. It is every bit of a substitution. For what may be zodiac was after when new in his day. It could be armed. But I know the FBI pays attention to what they call open source intelligence. And it includes social media. So people would have extreme view source seemed dangerous. You know they captured the attention of the authorities. So alien is going to be a good thing if they led at least some of these people being caught and it does you know before they commit their crimes. But I do also worry about. Are people going on line and finding a little nick showed. Of people that are into this same sort of illegal activities or worse sick idea that they are. And if they can just visit these sites and in circuit Gillick it's normal. There's been a couple things and I'm aware of the kind of circulated pop culture I don't know if their urban legends or there's actually some truth to them but maybe you give the bush shed some light on the one of them is that there's hidden messages. In our currency do you know if if there is and if you know is this isn't something that that is really really exists are. As this and urban legend. Yeah I don't know anything about that they're there is one interesting story I heard and I I can't tell if this is the correct explanation or not. But I mean surely you've heard many different ideas as to why there's an audio over a pyramid on the back of a dollar bill right. Alms bowl one goes back to the days before we art piece site pretty junction Ira Glass. And there's a spurious he cipher men in which on the person thought that the are it was an Egyptian symbol toward justice. So the symbol for justice system is not a bad thing to have on the back of our currency and now and and put putting it on top of a pyramid because that's how we bought the egyptians represented just this saw. That's nice explanation I get like I can tell that's correct demeanor or many competing explanations. Sure and there's one more that may fall into the same category for you because it could be just a bunch of bunk but you know I've I've gone through the Denver airport you know many men Korea Times and there's so many stories. It's circulate with hidden messages in the murals and and the design and any truth to that pitcher where if. I have no idea I didn't watch a video on YouTube about that many consider her interesting and entertaining to watch but. That that's outside my area of expertise. Right. We only have a couple of minutes left but what what. Did you work pulls from here you said that do you on the cutting room floor essentially left a lot of these things and you put your favorites in. The book. But this book still totaled 600 pages so what's next. Wolf will see a work in a different kind of book right now but there is one other chapter in the book that might be especially adjusting cure readers. I titled it from beyond the grave all of you know ten. And the truth sucks Spearman stunned by terror psychologist from the 1940s. Right up until the 21 century. Very very interesting idea how to test whether there can be life after death. Was to have somebody writes something in cipher. That would have a simple key the key could be a word or phrase. And the idea is that this person would leave decipher behind and not tell anyone the key. And then after he dies try to communicate it was someone stole law. So. But one example is Robert Powell at the Cambridge dawn. So after he passed if it's a medium. Claimed that here she was in communication with Collison and with given this key. The key could be applied to the cipher he left behind if it works superior to reveal the meaningful message. That what's to be taken as evidence that he truly communicated. So a number of people have tried desk. And I miss speaks to the integrity. From the people involved. That there was no solution. There were mediums claiming solutions and it never panned out. So there is no researcher who you don't secretly told somebody key to try to. Have a successful experiment they all carried it out legitimately. But either a provincial seeing an interesting way to try to pass that send. At the same time you have crypt colleges. Studying some of these ciphers try to crack down without any anything supernatural going on this is some of these ciphers are defeated outweigh. Okay kind of vicious thing back and forth cantenna. A medium crack one of these before crypto analyst yeah but so for Parker killer thriller or that success. Yet at hand and this simplistic version of that of course we've talked about on this program quite a bit is when Harry Houdini passed on heat gave a secret word it's not quite the same thing as a cipher but a word to his wife and said that he would donate to reach her and you know only the two of them knew the word and of course it never happened. So I don't know I don't know what that says for life after death we've. We've got a lot of Pete guests on this program they have evidence in support of that. That's one thing they have minimal that explains what to ask that question again. So the book is available. An and you wanna be wanna mention your your first book is well secret history that story script apology give us kind of a synopsis of that when. Sure the hour covers the thousands of years. History going from from the ancient world to the president. From you know assume Marion codes up to quantum computers. There's there's little more math and that book com that balance more force somebody day you know has some interest in in math. But it to have the same sort of lively style. So some of the people that are enjoying our default have you picked up secret history as well and you know skip over the bits that are you know if he sees as some equation they don't look at it just skip passes and there's there's still tons of interesting history like like this the same style but. Written a little bit. A more sophisticated level mathematically. And both books are available on it and Amazon com anywhere else they can have picked up either one of the books. Oh sure it anywhere on line that sells books and there are also available directly from the publisher. Unfold this from Princeton university press. And secret history is from a fewer seat Chapman Paul. So what putting a place to combine online. Order you'll final poll did some bookstores stereo. And is there a place that people can go to keep up to date on your worker and he made I don't know if you do appearances or gives talks are anything but if you do is they're placing people can follow you. Yes so I'm not actually on social media but I have a a web site associated with my college job. So if anybody does a Google search for Craig now or last name spelled PA EU ER. Arm and also putting York College. Are the first pitch should be my college web page in our lives talks like given in things like that arm. Politics also find my email address baron and I'm happy that third to respond to give to serve upcoming lecture dates. That's great Greg you've been a fantastic in a fascinating guests we appreciate you being on the program invites you to keep us up to date on your work. And if anybody. Send you an email and solves one of these ciphers that you've included in unsolved would love to talk about that too. And we'll have a great holiday and thanks so much for being on the program. Okay the book is called. Unsolved the history and mystery of the world's greatest ciphers from ancient Egypt to online secret societies. You get in on Amazon or in bookstores. Or you can just search and online you'll finding also find information about the author doctor Craig. Well we've got more comments beyond reality TV radio. Thanks everybody for joining us make thank you doctor Craig balance beam. Great guests look forward to having him back and we got a little bit of retreat and the night of course. Tomorrow night we have Jonathan gray joining us he's in archaeologists are going to be talking about the past present and future but. To end the night tonight. We've got a little Christmas special a song that I wrote for beyond reality radio and one night this way so will join in Marin I don't forget Jason should Jason's and be back hopefully healthy. All hoping for that it's beyond reality remembered have agreed that. It was early Christmas season. Steve and CNBC and hold. We have been urging. The bullet. The ball. Manners. Sorry. It's down. As far as we. Aliens ghosts. Or something. On this Christmas. Yeah. We'll stay on their own time. Christmas and now they. The strangest. All. No. And it's. It's. First visit there is being. Floor. When he's tired it's on T to these days. And. That was an area. We is being. You came. Now Jimmy. He says. Same. Jenny and I. Oh. It's. Next came to us here you long right through the wall. Jamie's dad has strangest times eSATA. Absolve. It goes sleeping your smile. And it's time. We hope this. It was all Hayward. CE. We. And. We scratched his I mean. Eight days. When I saw on Jason with the javy keeping pace. Oh mom or friend. From his head out to his feet. More boom boom boom boom. Or. Seeing. Okay. Paranormal Christmas was written and performed by James Johnson all rights reserved at. And don't know ingredients used to play Jason Hanson GB Jackson into this one I'll simply tell incidence. It's an old home week the only angry news. Yeah. You know it's stuck on her face in the agency hello Hayden sent inspectors will Jackson household and she's supposed to attempts to TV Johnson following. TV chief paranormal if you talk to readjust and beyond Rio Rio or you have a suggestion for guest contacts with Eddie Edwards at slick Eddie Edwards at be short visit our chat room as well I'd beyond reality review dot com thanks for listening.